In this episode of B2B Marketing Methods, Terri welcomes Russel Treat, CEO at EnerACT Energy Services, to discuss building a software company, podcast networks as a business growth tool, and the ups and downs of entrepreneurship in the industrial sector.
Russel discusses his diverse background, from his time at Texas A&M and in the Air Force to his entrepreneurial ventures in civil engineering and software development for the oil and gas industry. He also talks about the challenges of bridging the gap between technical content and marketing copywriting.
Terri and Russel also talk about the intricacies of sales and marketing for a B2B brand with complex offerings and share insights on measuring performance, understanding the buyers journey, and fostering collaboration between technical and marketing teams. They also discuss the significance of content production for generating traction and establishing thought leadership in a competitive landscape.
To learn more about Russel’s company, visit: https://eneractenergyservices.com/
To find out more about Marketing Refresh, visit: https://MarketingRefresh.com
Key Topics Discussed:
- Challenges in Content Creation and Marketing
- Sales and Marketing Strategies
- Company Operations and Sales Evolution
- Personal Passions and Influences
- Transition to Software Company and Marketing Evolution
- Brand Building and Customer Experience
- Professional Development and the Entrepreneurial Journey
Full Episode Transcript
Terri Hoffman [00:00:00]:
This is B2B Marketing Methods. I’m your host, Terry Hoffman, and I’m the CEO of Marketing Refresh. Let’s face it. Embracing digital marketing is daunting. This podcast was created to make it more approachable. Join us as we talk to CEOs, sales leaders, and revenue growth experts who will share lessons learned and tips from their own journeys. Welcome to the B2B Marketing Methods podcast, everyone. Today, I’m very excited about our guest.
Terri Hoffman [00:00:29]:
I’m going to give just maybe a little bit of background and a preview of what we’re going to be talking about today, and then we’ll see where the conversation takes us. So today we have Russell treat. Russell is the CEO of interact energy services. He is going to talk a little bit more about what interact is, what they do. He’s got several entities within that organization too, that he can talk about. Russell and I have worked together for Russell. I looked this morning and I think it’s been like 5 or 6 years now that we’ve been working together.
Russel Treat [00:01:02]:
You’re having fun. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:01:03]:
It sure does. Yeah. And we are gonna talk today about pipeline operations. We’re going to talk about software. We’re going to talk about podcasting in the B2B space. We’re going to be talking about pipeline safety, leak detection, and several other subjects that are part of Russell’s operation and areas of focus for his business growth. So let me start off by saying welcome, Russell. I’m really glad that you could take some time out today and join me on the podcast.
Terri Hoffman [00:01:34]:
Thank you.
Russel Treat [00:01:35]:
Well, so glad to be here. It seems like, it’s time that you and I did a podcast together. I don’t know why it took us so long.
Terri Hoffman [00:01:42]:
Well, it probably took us so long because we’re gonna talk about this, but you also host a podcast, and I have little to no value to add to your podcast because I am not a pipeline operations expert and would not have any learnings to share with your audience, but I’m really glad that you can join us here today.
Russel Treat [00:02:00]:
Well, I’m glad to be here. Yeah. Looking forward to this.
Terri Hoffman [00:02:02]:
Thank you. Thanks for not arguing with me too, that I have I have nothing to add. We have the same dry sense of humor, so that always makes me happy. So let’s talk about how you got started in your career. Right? I think you have a pretty interesting story. I had asked you for a bio ahead of time. And one thing that I found. Really, I’m not sure if you’re a bio ahead of time.
Terri Hoffman [00:02:22]:
And one thing that I found really ironic is that you did not include anything about the university that you graduated from yet it’s such a meaningful thing to you in your life. Maybe you could start there and kinda talk about how you started your career.
Russel Treat [00:02:37]:
Yeah. So, interesting. So I, you know, so I went to Texas A&M. I was in the corps and in the band at Texas A and M, which for people who don’t know, that just means I was kinda deeply entrenched in the culture. I’ll I’ll put it that way. Got out of A&M. I actually went to A&M not intending to go into the military because you can go to the corps and not go in the military, but I ended up taking a 3 year full scholarship with the Air Force after I’d been there a year. So I spent four and a half years in the Air Force as a civil engineer.
Russel Treat [00:03:10]:
The first couple of years in Oklahoma City doing facilities engineering, and the second couple of years, as a combat engineer in Europe, building things and then blowing it up when I was done, which I had an army guy tell me while I was in college, oh, you’re gonna be a civil engineer. You’ll find that blowing things up is more fun than building them, which I thought was stupid until I did it, and he was right. It’s a lot of fun. Anyway, so I got out I got out of the air force after four and a half years, and I went to work for a cryogenics company. And I was an applications engineer applying liquid CO 2, liquid nitrogen, liquid oxygen to various manufacturing processes. And I had told everybody that was close to me at a and m that I was gonna start my first business by the time I was 29. And pretty much started my first business because of that declaration. Right? Like, I wasn’t gonna be talking trash to my friends and then not do it because I’d never heard the end of it.
Russel Treat [00:04:07]:
And I started my first business, which was public speaking, selling books and tapes, teaching goal setting and time management and things of that nature, and very quickly merged that company into a group called software marketing. And that’s where I began to kinda find my home. Even throughout that entire period of time, I I worked with computers and software. So I, you know, I started doing programming in the seventies. I’m not a computer programmer. I’ve done enough of that to know that’s not what I needed my career to be, but I’ve always worked around software. The first civil engineering unit I was in in the air force automated all of its work orders and job order processes on a Wang mini computer, and that was in 1981 to 83. So and I was involved with facilitating that project from a rollout and training standpoint.
Terri Hoffman [00:04:57]:
Okay. So some of the things, yeah, some of the things that you’re doing today in your business definitely connect back.
Russel Treat [00:05:04]:
Oh, yeah. There’s no doubt. There’s no doubt. The Air Force was brilliant in what it was teaching me, even though I didn’t wanna be taught but needed it. You know, it’s kinda kinda interesting, particularly around a lot of the leadership and executive communication stuff that you have to learn if you’re an officer in the military. So, anyways, I I did that for a while. I went to work for software marketing. I merged my company in there.
Russel Treat [00:05:30]:
I was a principal. And what we did at software marketing is we would look for a device, what we call the device, which meant it’s a piece of software that did a job and had been sold, but it wasn’t a product because there was no marketing strategy, no road map, no development team, you know, no sales organization, you know, all you know, no support, no training, no documentation, all the things necessary to turn it into a real product, and we would commercialize those devices. And I did that in a lot of different industries. And what I found was I really liked oil and gas. So in 93, I took a position with a company called BNP Energy Systems, and I ran a software company that was building software for back office oil and gas measurement accounting, which in oil and gas, you have meters as product moves between the various owners, and then that data goes back to a function where they’re validating that all the metering is accurate before they send it off for invoicing. So Yeah. I was building software to do that. Did that for a number of years, and then in 98 left and started EnerSys.
Russel Treat [00:06:36]:
And EnerSys started out as a consultancy, became a control systems integration company. We’re building SCADA systems, so that’s supervisory control and data acquisition. It’s the technology used to put pretty cartoons on a set of computer screens so that you can operate a facility or a pipeline.
Terri Hoffman [00:06:55]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:06:56]:
And, in 20 2007, 2008 time frame, there were some new regulatory requirements coming out around pipelines that were gonna affect control rooms called control room management, and we started looking into that. So in 2012, we pivoted, and this is really kind of always my strategy, was to kinda end up with a software company. And and through the years of running EnerSys, we made multiple runs of trying to come up with something. And in 2012, I basically had a meeting with the company. Said, we’re burning the ships. We’re gonna take this opportunity with control room management. We’re gonna build a set of tools for that. We’re gonna become a software company, and that’s what we became.
Russel Treat [00:07:39]:
And that’s how we ended up getting introduced to you, Terry, as we were learning that what everything that I had learned about marketing when I was with software marketing 15 years ago wasn’t accurate anymore.
Terri Hoffman [00:07:51]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. And I had to go through that same transition in my marketing career. But one of the things that you talked about when you were at software marketing intrigues me because you clearly have the engineering background and experience and then that transitioned into software engineering eventually. But how how did marketing enter into the picture? Right? Like, how did why what ignited something in you to think, I also wanna figure out how to commercialize this and and learn more about marketing.
Russel Treat [00:08:24]:
You know, I that’s a really interesting question. I don’t think I’ve ever been asked that before. You know, as an engineer and I was a when I was a young engineer, I was a very stereotypical engineer, you know, very good analytical mind, very good project management. But, you know, the communication stuff and the the leadership stuff, I kinda discounted. And the what I what I learned when I, you know, went out and started my first business is that selling without marketing is hard. And then my one of my partners in, software marketing was he had taken a software company public and then unwound from that and then started software marketing. So when I merged it, he he had a real strong strategic marketing background. And when we would look at devices, we would do a market analysis and, you know, try to determine, well, what’s the upside opportunity? How big is the market? Are there other markets we could take this technology into? And then what I did is I was the sales guy.
Russel Treat [00:09:32]:
So I would go out and make the calls, and I’d find out I’d find all the objections. That’s all the reasons that people say no. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:09:38]:
Okay.
Russel Treat [00:09:39]:
And then we would sit down, and we’d work on the product and the messaging and the brand in order to get the messaging on target. And what I learned is when you get the marketing right and you get the sales right, it gets easy by, like, a couple of orders of magnitude. So the trick is all about the messaging. It’s not what it is, it’s how you talk about it.
Terri Hoffman [00:10:06]:
Yeah. I also wanna make an observation in there with what you just said. It seems like you recognized that there is actually a process to how you go about developing your strategy for sales and marketing. And I think that’s really important. That’s something really important that I want to communicate to our audience of listeners because I think sometimes people who are from an engineering background that have a very strong process oriented methodology that they’re following may not realize that you do actually also have to follow a process when it comes to a more creative and relational field like sales and marketing. A lot of people think like, oh, no. You just turn on that glamorous personality and everything comes together.
Russel Treat [00:10:51]:
Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s the difference between professional selling and what people think about when they go to the used car lot. Right? Yeah. Because professional selling is really about understanding your customer, understanding their problems, and helping them solve problems. That’s what professional selling really is. And what marketing is, is putting together messaging so that people with problems reach out and try to find you.
Terri Hoffman [00:11:16]:
Right. Yeah, exactly. And there is actually a way to go about figuring out what you just said. You know?
Russel Treat [00:11:25]:
Yeah. Well, and I think I think one of the things that that engineers and scientists and such don’t understand doctors fall in this category as well is that there is a process, but there’s a lot I mean, there’s a lot of ambiguity in the process early on. Because you have to discern. There’s like a there there’s a generic process, but the specifics of navigating that process are always quite unique to the product in the market.
Terri Hoffman [00:11:53]:
Okay. You just said something pretty valuable there. So talk talk to me about that. Like, can you think of a time that you went through that, whether it’s from your current business or from something previous where you’re like, we think we have this figured out and then you realize we don’t. And then how do you handle that? Like, what do you do at that point?
Russel Treat [00:12:13]:
Yeah. I’ve got many, many, many stories about that. You know, I’ve started 9 companies and I’ve probably tried to commercialize over 30 products. And there has been more than one case where I had a really good solution, but I couldn’t successfully commercialize it. Either because I couldn’t figure out the market, you know, the messaging, or we couldn’t over you know, we couldn’t get the pricing right or, you know, competitive pressures from others. I mean, there’s all kinds of reasons why it doesn’t work. You know, the what you have to do I have a saying, and I think it applies to this, is when do you call it a failure? And the answer is when you quit. Because there’s always an answer.
Russel Treat [00:12:57]:
It’s just how long are you going to have to work at it and how hard are you going to have to work at it and how much money and resource you’re gonna have to invest figure the answer out. Yeah. There’s always an answer.
Terri Hoffman [00:13:08]:
So do you feel like you have a do you feel like you have a rule of thumb that you follow when it comes to that topic?
Russel Treat [00:13:16]:
Mm-mm. I probably should have, but I don’t.
Terri Hoffman [00:13:21]:
No. I mean, to be honest, that was the answer I was expecting because I feel like every situation is probably different, and you have different factors at play. Right? It’s
Russel Treat [00:13:30]:
Well, it’s a unique com it’s a unique combination of kind of conservative analytical thinking and optimistic entrepreneurial thinking. And those two things are quite different and it freaks people out. You know, I’ve had to learn that with my team, I have to tell them, all right, you’re talking to the financial Russell Treat right now, or you’re talking to the engineering project manager Russell Treat right now or you’re talking to the sales entrepreneur Russell Treat right now.
Terri Hoffman [00:14:01]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:14:01]:
Right? So, you know, and and because they’re they’re different. Those minds are different minds. They they they chew on a problem differently. And I think one of the things you have to learn is I’ve got to shift between those different ways of thinking, and I got to be competent in all of them. And how do you know when it’s time to quit? Your gut will tell you.
Terri Hoffman [00:14:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let’s come back to 2012, you know, when you when you made pretty significant shift in, you know, and we I when I introduced you at the beginning, I talked about the brand Eneract. So maybe before we go into the shift at EnerSys, you can explain the connection between those two brands.
Russel Treat [00:14:44]:
Yeah. So Yeah. And So I started EnerSys in 1998. And in 2000, I started another company called Gas Certification Institute. So I had an opportunity to buy a natural gas training facility that was built originally by United Gas Pipeline, which the facilities are still around, but they’ve owned they’ve been owned by multiple other people. And I bought the facility, and we started doing measurement training. And I you know, because of what I had done with BMP and what we’ve done in measurement there, I’d had a lot of connections. And we built up a training company.
Russel Treat [00:15:20]:
And then it it existed. I had a partner in that business, and then I bought the the partner out. So it existed kinda separately. And then, later, I’m like, well, there’s opportunities for me to buy some other things and kinda merge them in. So I created a holding company called Interact, and Interact owns EnerSys. It owns GCI. It did own a company called PI Confluence, which we acquired in 2020. And then in January of 2024, we rolled into EnerSys.
Russel Treat [00:15:51]:
So it’s just a it’s a vehicle for me to be able to continue to feed my entrepreneurial spirit. I tell people I’m the guy that likes to put in the yard. I’m not the guy that likes to mow the grass. What I’ve learned is for me to be successful, I have to find people that like to mow the grass, but don’t go to those people and try to put in a new yard. They don’t like that. So Yeah. By creating by creating Interact, it gave me a way to have companies that could operate and focus and that and yet still allow me to noodle on, you know, entrepreneurial ideas that I think are accretive to the overall vision.
Terri Hoffman [00:16:31]:
Oh, yeah. And we’re gonna get to another one here here soon once we make it into the 20 twenties. But back in 2012, when you decided to make the shift in your business model with EnerSys, right? Do I have that correct? You kinda made a shift. Okay. So so talk about the shift, you know, talk about what you the because I view you as an early adopter that so I view you as a person who is in a traditional industry, who is very willing to be on the front end of a trend and adopt something and kinda go after that earlier than maybe the rest of the market sees it.
Russel Treat [00:17:06]:
I think that’s an accurate assessment. Yeah. Yeah. And I get bored. Once it’s no longer new and interesting, I get bored with it. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:17:15]:
So talk about what your strategy was at EnerSys and the ships that you made.
Russel Treat [00:17:20]:
Well, so EnerSys so when I started EnerSys, it was just me in my 2nd bedroom. And I didn’t know if I was gonna do consulting or find a job. And I just started dialing and very quickly got busy, and more work started coming in. The next thing I know, I’m hiring some contractors and I’m running some crews to do some things. And, you know, and that started leading into doing some projects. And so just out of the natural result of me calling and talking to people and playing with new technology and helping customers out, we grew and we grew pretty quickly. And the thing about the systems integration business, it’s a very easy business to start. It’s a difficult business to grow, and it’s nearly impossible to sustain.
Russel Treat [00:18:08]:
And the reason it’s nearly impossible to sustain is it’s project work. So when the when the world turns against you, as it does in oil and gas, you have to be kind of merciless about cutting people loose. So what I what I learned about that business is I was pretty good at it, but I didn’t like it. And I really liked the software business. And I I brought somebody in who’s a who’s a close friend of mine who I’ve known for years who’s also a business consultant and kind of went through a soul searching process in 2011. And I, you know, the net result of that is I don’t want to be a services company. I want to be a software company. So what’s necessary to be a software company? Let’s go do that.
Terri Hoffman [00:18:48]:
Yeah. Okay.
Russel Treat [00:18:49]:
And that’s what I did. And it was painful. And at that time, we had almost 30 employees. And I, you know, I did a big 2 day event. And at the end of the second day after we’d kinda gone through process, I was teeing up this big change. I said, look. We’re gonna become a software company. And what I mean by that is we’re gonna burn the ships.
Russel Treat [00:19:08]:
We’re gonna quit doing services projects. We’re not gonna hurt any of our customers. We’re gonna do it systematically. But 5 years from now, we’re not gonna be doing services that are unrelated to software that we provide. Yeah. And everybody’s like, oh, that’s a great idea. They all nodded their and I told them, I said, now probably 2 thirds of you aren’t going to be here in 5 years. Not because we’re gonna run you off, but you’re just gonna decide it’s not what you wanna do and you’re gonna do something else.
Russel Treat [00:19:34]:
And there were a couple of people who I had to help make that decision. But for the most part, it just kind of happened organically. But it was a very excruciating transition.
Terri Hoffman [00:19:45]:
Right. But
Russel Treat [00:19:47]:
it was the right decision because I’m I’m now, you know, 10 years, 12 years later looking back, and I’m saying, I’m doing exactly what I’ve always wanted to do my entire life.
Terri Hoffman [00:19:56]:
That’s awesome. So, Russell, just if you could, could you just give a brief overview? Like, what is your talk about the Poem Software tool. So I guess just for the listeners
Russel Treat [00:20:07]:
Well, let me talk with kind of the overall vision and then I’ll talk about the tools just to be out of context. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. So the vision is really not any different than when we were a services company because the vision was to help people with improved operational performance and improve regulatory compliance. And and that fundamentally is our mission, operation effectiveness and regular and safety. Right? Operations effectiveness, safety, compliance. That’s the mission.
Russel Treat [00:20:34]:
We’re providing tools and resources to help customers do that better. And that’s what we were doing when I was a consultant. It’s what I was doing when we were a services company. It’s what we do as a software business. The only real difference is it’s now a software offering. Software offering is called POIMS. That stands for Pipeline Operations Excellence Management System. That came out of an evening of consuming cocktails with my VP of sales.
Russel Treat [00:21:03]:
And I liked it. I like the acronym because I figured we could do all our marketing and limericks. Now, we haven’t made that transition yet, but.
Terri Hoffman [00:21:10]:
Oh, my. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:21:11]:
Yeah. There once was a pipeliner from the Permian. I mean, something like that, I don’t know. Anyways, I’m being a little flippant, obviously. But what POIMS is is a set of tools for control room management, so operations and compliance in the control room. Field operations have a tool called Muddy Boots that’s cloud based and works off of laptops and tablets and phones, allows you to do all your field activity and schedule at work and maintain your rotating equipment, all that stuff. And then we have another set of tools called program suite, which allows you to manage your regulatory programs, your policies, your procedures, track and implement processes, and make sure that as you complete processes, you get all the right records captured and have them where you need them for compliance and for safety performance analysis.
Terri Hoffman [00:21:58]:
Okay.
Russel Treat [00:21:59]:
So that’s that’s what the tools do. But what’s interesting, I think, about that is it’s all the same vision. It’s all the same strategy. But now the mechanism versus providing services or providing software with services. And, you know, the idea is we want service we want software that customers can use with ARDA or help once they’re fully equipped and trained. And we have customers that do that.
Terri Hoffman [00:22:25]:
So something that I think is important to appreciate too is that based on the time your timing, making that shift, it was done at a time where maybe your market of buyers weren’t exactly ready to be making that shift from a consulting solution to a software as a service solution. Am I do I have that correct?
Russel Treat [00:22:48]:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Terri Hoffman [00:22:49]:
Yeah. Okay. So you work in an industry that if their job is done incorrectly, people could die. Right? Like, there’s lives.
Russel Treat [00:22:58]:
Oh, yeah.
Terri Hoffman [00:22:59]:
Yeah. And all sorts of different types of safety ramifications, a lot of regulatory compliance that is, like, dictated by the federal government, local local governments, and it’s really serious what you do. Right? So the risk of switching from a way that’s known to switching from a way to a way that is unknown was a pretty daunting challenge for you to go through. I I would love for you to talk about that because
Russel Treat [00:23:27]:
you Interesting. I never thought about it that way. I actually thought about it’s a better way to do what we’re trying to do. The problem with services delivery is that you’re highly reliant on people, their intellect, their loyalty, their integrity. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:23:44]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:23:45]:
And in a services business that’s project centric, you get those people on staff and then things turn against you, and then you gotta let them go. And you get a reputation of doing that. It’s hard to hire. Them. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:23:54]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:23:55]:
So you actually have more risk as a services company than you do as a software company. The beauty of software, you know, I say this all the time. Software doesn’t solve problems. Process solves problems. Software facilitates process. So what I can do is I can normalize processes. And by doing that, I can normalize performance. And then I can do analytics and determine is the software in the process implemented getting into the result I want.
Russel Treat [00:24:24]:
And I can make changes and those changes are easier to implement. I get there quicker, and I get a more predictable recurring result because of software. So to my mind, there wasn’t really any risk. I was moving towards a better state. I wasn’t thinking about the risk. I mean, but you’re right. I mean, there was risk there and there was a lot of risk with we had to be we had to be deliberate about how we communicated that shift to our customers.
Terri Hoffman [00:24:55]:
Right. Exactly. That and that’s kinda where I was going with it is how did you then determine, alright. I made the announcement to the staff. I’ve let them know what we’re going to be going through. How do I now start to develop what my message is to the market and starting with my clients? Like, how how did you step through that process?
Russel Treat [00:25:14]:
Well, the first thing is I didn’t even worry about it till we had a product that was mature enough to sell to the customers.
Terri Hoffman [00:25:20]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:25:20]:
Right? So it was a declaration I made. And basically what that did is it changed how we were investing in the business. So rather than investing in new people or constantly playing with new tools so that we were the expert in the new tools, we invested in building our tools.
Terri Hoffman [00:25:39]:
Got it.
Russel Treat [00:25:39]:
And then it was 20 13 that I brought in a sales guy, and it was 2015, I believe, when you and I got involved. Because we were going to market and it was crickets. We weren’t getting any traction in the market. We couldn’t figure out why.
Terri Hoffman [00:25:54]:
Oh, gosh. Okay. I guess we’ve been working together longer than I even put together this morning. So that, see, that feels more accurate. I was like, I feel like we’ve worked together longer than 5 years. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:26:05]:
Well, we we started I mean, we probably had conversations for 6 months before we actually engaged. Because I knew what I was looking for, and there’s a lot of marketing agencies out there that are not what I was looking for, and it was hard to find what I was looking for.
Terri Hoffman [00:26:20]:
Yep.
Russel Treat [00:26:20]:
And then a lot of people will tell you what you wanna hear, and, you know, I didn’t wanna just be told. I wanted to know.
Terri Hoffman [00:26:30]:
Right. Yeah. And you well, hopefully, something you’ve learned about my personalities. I don’t just tell people what they wanna hear sometimes.
Russel Treat [00:26:37]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s one of the things I value about you, truly. I mean, I Yeah. I don’t need people around me telling me what I wanna hear.
Russel Treat [00:26:44]:
I need people telling me what I need to hear.
Terri Hoffman [00:26:46]:
And I
Russel Treat [00:26:47]:
need to be I need for them to be confident enough, strong enough, and persistent enough to get it through my thick skull. Because every thing that I do is because of a decision I have arrived at over many years of experience. Yeah. Experience being what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted. Wisdom being what you get if you learn the right lesson from the experience.
Terri Hoffman [00:27:10]:
Yeah. I so I would like to dig a little bit deeper into that because I think the selection process of finding the right sales and marketing solution for a lot of b to b businesses is excruciating. It it’s a journey. It’s not like, oh, we went out and interviewed someone from a job description and then we found the right agency and all the puzzle pieces came together and it’s been a breeze. Like, unfortunately, because I talk to people who are in your shoes all the time, it’s, I don’t see that happen. Very often, it can be like a frustrating journey to get to that right equation. Right? So where I’m going with those comments is, like, what are the things I first of all, please do not make this a marketing refresh commercial. I don’t need you to complement our agency.
Terri Hoffman [00:28:01]:
What I’m looking for is a way to help the audience learn, like, what are the things that you looked for so that you knew you were finding the right partner.
Russel Treat [00:28:10]:
So what I would say this is so true for any entrepreneur that is entering a domain that they’re not an expert. Right? And in marketing in particular, I’d done a lot of strategic marketing, but I hadn’t done any contemporary tactical marketing. So my my skills were dated, and I don’t have any formal training in marketing. All my training is, you know, the 50 plus books I’ve read and a whole lot of experience. Yeah. So what what I was looking for is I wanted somebody that could come alongside me and help me develop strategy and help me build brand. Because and most marketing agencies, and particularly the people that are aggressively soliciting small businesses, they’re all promising you leads. I do not need leads.
Russel Treat [00:29:06]:
I know everybody that could buy my software.
Terri Hoffman [00:29:09]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:29:10]:
I need brand. Yeah. And so I was looking for somebody that could help me build brand and build it in our voice with our ethos. And kind of coming back to your point earlier about what we do is serious. What we do is deadly serious. And I mean, like for real deadly serious. If we work with customers and we get it wrong, then lives and property are materially at risk. And that is a big dang deal to me.
Russel Treat [00:29:44]:
I mean, it’s just a big deal. So our brand has to be this but we’re also innovators, and we’re on the leading edge, and we’re driving change. So our brand has to be this unique and kind of in conflict combination of safety, integrity, thoughtfulness, deliberateness, and innovation.
Terri Hoffman [00:30:10]:
Right. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:30:11]:
So, you know, finding the right marketing partner that could help us build that brand and then help us build capability around our marketing was like very much non trivial. And that’s why it took so long because I kept finding people. Well, we can help you build leads. And then I would start talking about brand and strategy, and it was they didn’t get it. Or I would talk about brand and strategy, and they would talk about new website and colors, but they didn’t get the execution of strategy. And really what I was looking for was somebody who could help us with both.
Terri Hoffman [00:30:48]:
So talk to me about brand because brand is such a broad term. Right? That’s it. And I do think that it can, like, different tangible parts of it can mean something different to different people. So when you talk about brand, can you help to define, like, what that means to you? You’re you’re describing, like, messaging and value proposition in your
Russel Treat [00:31:12]:
It’s bigger than that in my view.
Terri Hoffman [00:31:14]:
Tell tell me tell me what it means to you.
Russel Treat [00:31:17]:
So brand is bigger than just messaging. Brand fundamentally is what people take away every time they engage with your company, whether that’s advertising, sales, product delivery, going through white papers on your website. Every time they connect with your company, what they take away is brand. And then brand is what resonates for them. And if you’re not everybody has a brand. Most people don’t know what their brand actually is.
Terri Hoffman [00:31:51]:
Yeah, that’s true. Right? That is definitely true.
Russel Treat [00:31:55]:
So deliberate creation and curation of a brand is a big deal. There are certain things that are ways that people would have a conversation with a customer that if I catch them doing it, I’m going to jump right in the middle of it. And then likewise, if I catch them doing it, I’m going to go, yes. That’s good. Do that. That’s excellent. Yeah. Because it’s every single time you interact.
Russel Treat [00:32:19]:
So, you know, whenever we’re writing blog content or web content, you know, that stuff, it can’t be overly sales ish. It has to be serious and grounded in fact, and that is it’s not easy to do. It’s a lot of
Terri Hoffman [00:32:35]:
work. Right. And it also can’t be like, you’re bringing up a point that I think is really important is it has to do with your customer service, it has to do with every single thing from the first time someone’s exposed to your company to how they do business with you every single day. Right? So it’s so connected to your culture.
Russel Treat [00:32:53]:
Invoicing, how you make your collection calls, all that is part of your brand.
Terri Hoffman [00:32:57]:
Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s really important to recognize. I had a guest on the podcast last week and he and I talked about how, you know, and it wasn’t he or I who said this phrase, but there was a person that we both follow on LinkedIn who said a sale is not actually complete until the impact of what you sold is realized. And that’s pretty powerful because I think, you know, to me, that connects back to a brand. Right? Like, we’re promising you something we’re going to do. We did it, and you actually realize the impact of what we sold you. Right? Like, to me, that’s Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:33:38]:
Yeah. Definition of a completed sale. Right? The product’s been delivered. The customer is implemented. They like what they got. They’re recommending it to their friends.
Terri Hoffman [00:33:50]:
Right. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:33:50]:
That’s a completed sale. Right? And if you’re not at recommending to their friends, you’ve not you’re not done yet. But, again, that goes to brand.
Terri Hoffman [00:33:57]:
Yeah. It does. It it absolutely does. And I think the the, like, a struggle, for lack of a better word, the the struggle to actually identifying that for your company is really hard and it, but it can be done. And I think it’s, it’s also like a living, breathing definition that you’re having to redefine as things in the the, you know, whole business environment changes. But, yeah, go ahead. It looks like you have
Russel Treat [00:34:28]:
something to say. Yeah. I’m agreeing with what you’re saying. What I was gonna add is as an entrepreneur leading an organization, it has to come out of who you are and what you believe to be true and your passions. And then what you have to do is curate that with every hire, every sales opportunity, every contracting engagement, all of that. You have to curate that so that everything that you’re doing and it starts with marketing, but it doesn’t end there. Right? It starts with
Terri Hoffman [00:35:03]:
marketing. Exactly. Right. So, Russell, I wanna talk about a really huge and for your industry innovative content program that you started that is also known as a cast. And, because you did something really unique in your industry. I’m gonna say 5 years ago, you started
Russel Treat [00:35:29]:
Longer. It’s 2017. 7 years ago.
Terri Hoffman [00:35:32]:
Okay.
Russel Treat [00:35:34]:
So I know. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:35:36]:
Yeah. But talk about that. So you you started a show that has now grown into a network with several different series that are involved, which act so since I was working with you when you first started it, you actually had that as your vision from the beginning. And it it just you know, you had to go through some different phases and steps to get there. But talk about the pipeline podcast network and how what the genesis was, how you got that started, and kind of how it’s evolved today.
Russel Treat [00:36:08]:
Yeah. So we went to market in 2013, 2014 pretty aggressively, and we did all the things that I had always done in the past to crack into a new market. So, you know, letters to executives with executive introductions and, you know, conferences and presenting papers and, like, nothing was working. We weren’t getting any traction. So I’m like, okay. I started I started going out, and I’m I’m always an early adopter. So I was listening to podcasts starting back in, like, probably 2013. So I started finding some podcasts on marketing and web based selling and such.
Russel Treat [00:36:46]:
And what I got was, well, if you’re gonna do current marketing, you have to give something away because marketing is now pull marketing. It’s not push marketing. Everything I had learned was push. That’s the old school way of doing things. And the world had shifted to pull marketing. And I’m like, what in the world could I give away? I mean, for an entrepreneur, I’m like, we don’t I don’t give things away. It’s not what I do.
Terri Hoffman [00:37:10]:
Well, especially when you’re a consultant. Right? Like Right. For what you know is what you sell. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Sorry.
Russel Treat [00:37:19]:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No. It’s it’s exactly right on point. You know, I started noodling on the idea, and I I started thinking about podcast. Could I do a podcast? Now I have a background. I’ve done music off and on for years.
Russel Treat [00:37:32]:
I’ve run sound for bands. I was a DJ at a at the college radio station for a while. So I, you know, I have a background of being on the microphone.
Terri Hoffman [00:37:42]:
Mhmm. So
Russel Treat [00:37:42]:
and I and I and I knew I had the voice for it, and I kinda had some of the native skills because I’ve done a ton of public speaking, and it generally comes easy to me. So it’s just kind of the natural gifting that God gave me. So but, you know, knowing that I might wanna do a podcast and that might be something I could give away was part of it. But then I started thinking, well, how am I gonna do this? Because I’m already working 80 hours a week, and I don’t wanna work 85. So how do I do this? Right? So what what’s necessary? What’s your logistics? How, you know, how am I gonna do it so that all I have to do is get on the microphone and talk? And then if I’m gonna do a podcast, what should the theme be? And it and you started pushing me. Yes, Russell. You need to do a podcast. Yes, Russell.
Russel Treat [00:38:23]:
You need to do a podcast. And I would ask you these questions. We had this conversation multiple, multiple times. And I’ve and I finally hit on it when I realized that I learned measurement by going to the measurement schools, going to the classes, and then after the classes, carving the instructors out. And if they couldn’t ask the question, going back on the trade show, find and finding the smart guy and asking the question. And I I became an expert in measurement by doing that. Right? And so, you know, most valuable thing I have is my rolodex. I know if anybody knows what a rolodex anymore.
Russel Treat [00:38:57]:
My contact list. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:38:58]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:38:59]:
Who I know to call when I have oh, this problem, I call this guy. They’re gonna be able to help me. Right?
Terri Hoffman [00:39:03]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:39:04]:
So I’m like, well, maybe that’s what the podcast ought to be. Maybe what I do and at that time, you know, one of the things that was that kinda became clear for me is I was very well known within a certain segment. Mhmm. But that segment was relatively small and not appropriate for where we were trying to go in the future. And I realized there was a whole lot I needed to learn about pipelining. I’m like, well, why don’t I just interview people and record it? And then I’ll learn about pipelining. And if I do this right, I’ll create a resource that’s an asset to industry. So that’s kind of the genesis.
Russel Treat [00:39:39]:
And then I’m like, well, if I become an asset and a resource, then I’m gonna get more resonance around our brand and our products.
Terri Hoffman [00:39:45]:
Right. Yeah. So I I remember well, first of all, I remember when the you had that light bulb moment on the theme because I remember getting a really fired up excited call from you because it’s like it all came together and you arrived. I had been pushing you, pushing you, pushing you because
Russel Treat [00:40:03]:
And I had been thinking about it for about 18 months. I’ve been thinking about it for a long time.
Terri Hoffman [00:40:07]:
I remember that was, you know, that was a gratifying moment for me as well as you because it was just exciting to hear that you figured out something that you could spend your time doing that would add value, not just to your business, but to the whole industry. That’s pretty cool. And then secondly, I remember you telling me something about a year after the podcast launched because you were having like, you just described, you were really well known in a specific group and in a certain niche of the market, but you were having trouble building awareness with multiple kind of stakeholders within your client account. Right? There’s different groups involved in operating a control room, not just the person sitting at the controlling controller station. I remember you telling me about a year after the podcast launched, oh my gosh. A year ago, people would come up to the EnerSys booth at a conference and say, oh, EnerSys. Who are you? What do you what do you guys do? And I remember a year after the podcast launched, people were approaching your conference booth and saying, oh, yeah. You’re the guy that that hosts the Pipeliners podcast.
Terri Hoffman [00:41:17]:
I know I know you. This is really cool. I’ve got some questions about the poems tool for you. And so it skipped them ahead into a different phase of a conversation because they had already spent a lot of time getting to know you through the podcast. Right?
Russel Treat [00:41:33]:
Yeah. So now we’re, you know, now we’re 7 years in, and I’ll we’re gonna go to our big conferences here in a few weeks. And I will have multiple people come up to me. Well, I’ll give you a couple of examples of, like, work. So the whole goal was to become known as a resource and a trusted partner and an expert in the pipeline world.
Terri Hoffman [00:41:56]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:41:56]:
And at that time, I knew pretty much, you know, people that worked around building SCADA systems, and that was it. So here we are 7 years later. I’ve known personally the last 2 administrators of PHMSA, which is the federal regulator for pipelines. I know all of the people that are in leadership positions around the various trade organizations that support pipelining. I’ve met multiple company presidents, vice presidents. I’ve met tons of consultants and people that work in pipeline safety and integrity management and such. So in fact, in December, I went to an event in Washington, DC, and I was riding in the elevator from the event up to my room. And I just said to the guy in the elevator, could you push floor, whatever? And he goes, he kind of cocked his head.
Russel Treat [00:42:49]:
He goes, you’re the pipeline podcast guy, right?
Terri Hoffman [00:42:52]:
No way. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:42:53]:
He goes, oh, yeah. I know you. And then he after the he’s I hand him the card and he dropped me a note. It was a senior pipeline regulator for 1 of the at the at the state level for 1 of the states in the US. And he reached out and says, I wanna get together with you and visit. So everything that we set out to accomplish, we’ve accomplished and then some with the podcast.
Terri Hoffman [00:43:16]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:43:17]:
And I know that there are companies out there that use content that if we’ve created to onboard new engineers and new technicians and operators, it’s really and I I hear from regulators and senior managers all the time saying I listen all the time. I’m always learning something new.
Terri Hoffman [00:43:35]:
That’s awesome.
Russel Treat [00:43:36]:
And it’s an extension of the brand. So it’s driven by my natural curiosity and the guest’s expertise. And then occasionally, I’ll bring somebody on to interview me about something I’m an expert in.
Terri Hoffman [00:43:49]:
Yeah. But I think what’s interesting about it to me, just having known the entire journey you’ve been through, is that you don’t talk about your companies on the podcast. Yeah. So you’re you’re actually just generating content that is helpful to the entire industry, And that has always like, I’ve watched you stay very true and, like, maintain a very high level of integrity to that goal and not make it a self serving show, right, where you’re talking about Mhmm. Trying to sell something. And I think, in my mind, that’s, like, one of the ingredients that has made it so successful.
Russel Treat [00:44:26]:
Yeah. There’s there’s one thing too that’s going on that’s interesting is there’s, you know, when I started, I was the 1st podcast in the pipeline space, and I started pre COVID.
Terri Hoffman [00:44:37]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:44:38]:
There are now several other podcasts in this space, and they’re all people that were on my podcast first.
Terri Hoffman [00:44:45]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:44:46]:
And with some of them, one of them one of the groups in particular, we have an ongoing riff where, you know, they’ll be at a trade show, and I’ll sit down in their booth, and I’ll do a pipeline or podcast promo from their booth. Right? And they’ll do the same to me. So it’s it’s it’s become fun, and, you know, it’s created a lot of of neat relationships.
Terri Hoffman [00:45:07]:
Yeah. Well and that’s what’s cool is you’re not even looking as at those other shows as a competitor. You’re looking at them as helping to further increase the the method of learning through a podcast. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:45:21]:
It’s all part of executing the vision.
Terri Hoffman [00:45:23]:
Yeah. So let me come back to, another component of content production and and talking about EnerSys. So I think something, is extremely challenging when it comes to producing content, if it’s a white paper, a blog, a case study, a video, when you’re doing that for a highly technical deliverable, I would love for you to talk about some of the challenges in that and how you have found some success at EnerSys in getting from point a of, like, we’d like to communicate this to z on, okay, now we’ve put something that we feel has some substance. It may not be what I tell someone in person, but it’s got some substance to it, and we think this can help us in the marketing realm.
Russel Treat [00:46:08]:
Yeah. The hardest part of that is getting people to speak in the company voice. You know, it it still needs to be a marketing piece. Right? You still gotta put the marketing stuff in it, but you gotta speak in the company voice. That’s the hardest bit. The technical content is one challenge. I mean, that that’s just a matter of getting the right people to focus on dropping it on the page. So what what tends to happen is the people that are good at kind of general marketing copywriting and can learn your voice don’t know the technical content.
Terri Hoffman [00:46:40]:
And the
Russel Treat [00:46:40]:
technical content people can’t really put it into a voice. Mhmm. So getting those folks to work well together and just kinda say, look. You’re not a writer. You have technical content, and you could put it down on pages, but you’re not a writer. You don’t write in a way that people wanna sit and read it. They’re a writer. They don’t know the technical content.
Russel Treat [00:47:01]:
So trying to help people understand, particularly engineers and technicians and people that have regulatory compliance backgrounds, getting them to understand that, yes, you write, but you don’t write. You know? And they write. They don’t know. And and getting, you know, getting that teamwork to happen effectively and getting the voice correct, that’s the hardest part. Yeah. Content is just work.
Terri Hoffman [00:47:23]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:47:24]:
That’s still harder than getting any other work done that’s not generating revenue.
Terri Hoffman [00:47:28]:
Do you think that it is hard work that is worth the time that needs to be put in to get to that correct equation?
Russel Treat [00:47:38]:
Wow. Well, I’m not gonna quit doing it. So I guess the answer to that is yes.
Terri Hoffman [00:47:44]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:47:45]:
Yeah. It’s it the the reason I hesitate as I’m thinking about answering that question is it’s a lot of work, and it’s hard to, you know, quantify the value of that work. Really hard. On the other hand, what I know is if you don’t have that content, you’re not gonna get traction like you need to. And and, again, if we’re gonna deliver the brand, we have to deliver thought leadership content. We’ve gotta be constantly pushing the envelope. We’ve gotta be the place that people go to our website, look for our white papers because they know they’re gonna learn something.
Terri Hoffman [00:48:22]:
Yeah. Well and I’m I’m really digging into this topic, and I’m asking you hard questions about it because I just see so frequently. And, again, this is not a, boy, I want everybody to call me and work with Marketing Refresh. I just what I want is for people to not let them that be the thing that scares them or stops them from starting on the marketing journey. Because content production for a B2B brand that has a complex offering is key. Right? It it is Oh, yeah. Really important. It is hard to quantify.
Terri Hoffman [00:48:55]:
And I think finding that balance between the technical information and more of, like, a go to market writing style is Mhmm. Extremely challenging, and I see it hold people back too often.
Russel Treat [00:49:16]:
Working with you, Terry, and your and and the whole marketing refresh team is that you you really have to make a commitment to the totality of what you’re gonna do. Yep. Whatever that totality is, you have to make a commitment to it. I think and we were talking about the podcast. I think you’ll probably recall this, but you’ll remember I said, we’re, you know, we’re going to do this for a year and then we’re going to reevaluate.
Terri Hoffman [00:49:43]:
Yep. And when
Russel Treat [00:49:44]:
I started out, I sent out 200 emails to people that I know. I said, listen to this. Let me know what you think. And by the way, I want you to be a guest. And about 25 episodes in, I was really struggling to find guests.
Terri Hoffman [00:49:56]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:49:56]:
And at 50 episodes, I wasn’t getting the results I wanted yet, but the indication was that we were headed on the right track. And at the end of 2 years, it’s like, oh, man. Yeah. No. This is working. And now it’s like, I can’t quit.
Terri Hoffman [00:50:11]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:50:11]:
It’s it’s just it’s become too much fun, and I just keep meeting more and more people and learning more and more. And, you know, it’s just that you know, it’s like I’d be doing a disservice to the industry if I quit. And I don’t mean that to be braggadocious or anything. It’s just, you know, people really rely on that content to to help them do their job.
Terri Hoffman [00:50:33]:
Well, I think that is totally a reflection of the quality of the guests that you’ve been able to bring on. Right? It’s you’ve you’ve created the platform and certainly ask great questions and you’re curious about the right topics, but I mean, the guests you have are for anyone that’s in your industry, you get the top of the top as far as credibility.
Russel Treat [00:50:52]:
That’s very true.
Terri Hoffman [00:50:53]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:50:53]:
Mhmm.
Terri Hoffman [00:50:54]:
Yeah. You’re you’re able to convince them to come on your show because they know you’ve got the platform. And it takes you time. You know? It takes
Russel Treat [00:51:01]:
time to I think it’s 2 things. 1, they know I have the platform. And 2, now that enough of those people have been on, they know that I’m not I’m not playing any games. Right? I’m here to help. I’m here to serve. Yep. I’m gonna ask hard questions. I’m looking for interesting conversation, but I’m not trying to set anybody up.
Russel Treat [00:51:18]:
I’m I’m not trying to be controversial. It’s not what we do.
Terri Hoffman [00:51:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So if you I’ve got a really hard question for you.
Russel Treat [00:51:28]:
These so so the ones you’ve done before were hard? These
Terri Hoffman [00:51:31]:
you’re just doing
Russel Treat [00:51:31]:
the hard ones now?
Terri Hoffman [00:51:32]:
This one could be harder. I don’t know. You might actually think it’s easier. I’m gonna ask it anyway. So the question is, like, looking back on your sales and marketing journey for EnerSys, what do you think has been, like, the biggest challenge or maybe a couple of the biggest challenges that you’ve had to overcome? I know what I would say for you having gone through it with you, but I
Russel Treat [00:51:55]:
What would you say for me? I’m I’m curious what that would be, and then I’ll I’ll give you my answer.
Terri Hoffman [00:52:00]:
I think the one of the things that has been hard was really understanding, like, kind of that buying journey that the different people involved in the decision making process each have to go through, and they don’t go through it at the same pace, and they don’t go through it in the same way. And their timing and prioritization of it isn’t even the same. So that that’s something you and I have had conversations about before. It’s really challenging.
Russel Treat [00:52:23]:
Yeah. That’s that’s interesting. There’s certainly truth to that. But the thing about the buyer’s journey and what I believe about selling is I don’t have any argument that that’s what’s required. It’s just the discovery of that is challenging, but that that’s not been the most challenging bit.
Terri Hoffman [00:52:39]:
Okay. Well, then I can’t wait to hear your answer.
Russel Treat [00:52:42]:
The most challenging bit is when you and I started together, I was still carrying most of the sales.
Terri Hoffman [00:52:47]:
Oh, yeah.
Russel Treat [00:52:48]:
I don’t carry partly any of the sales anymore. So that’s making that transition. And for any entrepreneur who knows they can make it rain, to give that rainmaking to somebody else is hard. Right? Yeah. Just hard for all kinds of reasons. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing is realizing that I know more about selling, particularly selling our products than anybody else, even if they’re not top salesperson. So we have a product called Muddy Boots.
Russel Treat [00:53:18]:
I brought somebody in to kinda drive that. They were with us about two and a half years, had almost zero success. I took over the sales from them when they left, and that was 7, 8 months ago. And we’ve gone from 0 customers to half a dozen. We got 6 more waiting to sign. But the challenge with that is, and and really kind of coming back to this whole buyer’s journey is they didn’t understand the journey. They didn’t understand how to sell. My challenge is I do it intuitively, and I have to try and raise it to a conscious level so I can teach it to others and hold accountability to the process.
Terri Hoffman [00:53:54]:
Yeah. Well, and you’re you’re bringing up something else that is, I think, very pervasive in the b to b space is that the blurring of lines between being a really, successful salesperson and being a successful marketer are they’re blurring even more. Like, the differentiation between those roles is even evolving quite a bit. Right?
Russel Treat [00:54:19]:
Yeah. I think the state of the art with marketing is that marketing marketing, sales, account management, and service are all coming together and becoming a revenue team. And Yeah. That is a much better model. In fact, we just I just put in an incentive program for the company so that everybody participates in the commission on new sales.
Terri Hoffman [00:54:44]:
Interesting. Okay.
Russel Treat [00:54:45]:
Because what what I want and where given where we are in our life cycle and what we need to kinda continue to have the company grow, be successful, and really have sustainability is we need a larger install base. That that is, you know, in terms of, like, what we need as a KPI, as company performance, we need more customers. Not like we don’t have enough. I’m not we have quite a few, and we were and we’re growing. But, you know, in a in a software business, there’s a point kind of crossover, kind of a breakeven point where I get this level of customers, and now I have sustainability and I can weather the downturns effectively.
Terri Hoffman [00:55:21]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:55:21]:
And it’s the downturns where you really capture market share.
Terri Hoffman [00:55:24]:
But I really I really wish that somebody who is not in your industry listening to this could, like, actually appreciate the level of complexity involved with your software tools. Because a lot of people, when you use the word SaaS or a software sale, you think of something that is maybe, like, much more not really, like, enterprise level might not be the first thing people think about. They’re thinking more about, like, a tool I use to do scheduling or putting my
Russel Treat [00:55:52]:
Well, yeah. I mean,
Terri Hoffman [00:55:53]:
the calendar appointments together.
Russel Treat [00:55:54]:
Yeah. The the stuff we’re selling is mission critical. People rely on it for safety performance.
Terri Hoffman [00:56:00]:
Right. And it is highly complex and rich in its feature set. It it almost, to me, is as complicated as selling, like, a $700,000 piece of equipment that has to be installed out in the field. Right? It’s it has so many different implications in terms of it’s not just figuring out, like, which menu do I go to to use this particular feature.
Russel Treat [00:56:22]:
It’s You actually have to know the job you’re trying to perform.
Terri Hoffman [00:56:25]:
Yes. Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:56:26]:
And and how the tool supports performing the job. Yeah.
Terri Hoffman [00:56:29]:
Mhmm. Correct. Yeah. So it’s when you kind of describe that you’re selling software, embedded within that is a really important component, which is making sure that it actually connects
Russel Treat [00:56:44]:
to the way that they operate. Yeah. There’s subject matter expertise
Terri Hoffman [00:56:46]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:56:46]:
That and that, again, it’s part of the brand, but, you know, we have to help the customers get to the value, which means we gotta understand what they’re doing, how they’re using it, you know, the implications. Right? We we gotta understand how they operate all that.
Terri Hoffman [00:56:59]:
Yeah. Exactly. So well, Russell, one, one last area that I wanted to ask you about is, is also very challenging, but I’m still gonna ask it anyway. Since I I’ve just been like throwing the I’ve been throwing the curve balls at you the whole time so far. So why stop now? What the last question I have is really about budgeting. Right? So this can be, like, a really uncomfortable conversation to talk about, but I am really trying to, again, like, use this platform to make everything in the digital marketing realm less scary than I think it is to a lot of entrepreneurs right now. So how do you approach budgeting when it comes to, like, sales and marketing? And how does that connect to, like, reporting and performance review and and things like that? Can you create a system of accountability for this area?
Russel Treat [00:57:50]:
Wow. That’s a really interesting question. So I’ll tell you where we are in kind of the the life of our business because it’ll help build context for the answer to this question. So we have just hit 15 employees. So, you know, when you’re when you’re running a business and you’re less than 15 employees, you can kinda have your hands on every little detail. But you can’t do you you can kinda barely do that at 15, and there’s no way you can do it at 25. So there’s this process you have to go through where rather than you as the leader entrepreneur being the process and the control, you have to begin to document all your processes and controls and implement them in a way that people can follow them. And then you have to work on managing the process, not the people.
Russel Treat [00:58:37]:
And we’re right in the we’re right at the be kind of the tipping point of having to really dive into that deeply. And it’s very challenging because nobody has time to do it, and everybody needs these things answered yesterday.
Terri Hoffman [00:58:50]:
Right.
Russel Treat [00:58:51]:
Right? So just kinda building context. So you asked about budgeting and how do you budget for marketing and
Terri Hoffman [00:58:57]:
selling? Even resourcing. You know, just more broadly, like, resourcing and budgeting is a part of resourcing. Right? Yeah.
Russel Treat [00:59:04]:
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know that I do it really well. I’d have to I’d have to have somebody else that’s seen a lot of other companies do it, come look at what I do. And and we’re certainly having a lot of growing pains in this domain. But but what I would say is you gotta have a budget. You’ve gotta monitor how you’re doing versus the budget. Just just what am I spending versus what I thought I should be spending. Right? Just at that level.
Russel Treat [00:59:29]:
And then you have to have some kind of reporting and evaluation to determine is that spend justified. And probably more to the point is is that spend optimized. It’s probably more of a a a more a better frame. So we are clumsy at that at best, not near where I would wanna be. We’re, you know, when we first started working with with you in Marketing Refresh, we had 0. So now we have more than 0.
Terri Hoffman [00:59:59]:
Mhmm.
Russel Treat [00:59:59]:
But I wouldn’t say we’re flying the plane based on the KPIs we’re seeing. So, you know, it it’s it’s a big challenge. I I know what my vision is. I know where I wanna try and get to. And and I think the classic model of I spent this much on marketing. I built on a and I created this many leads is not the model I wanna follow. What I wanna look at is pipeline build. So pipeline build is we’ve done a demo.
Russel Treat [01:00:28]:
We’ve written a budgetary. It’s it’s in it’s in the pipeline. Okay. That’s ad. That’s an ad. So that’s pipeline build. I wanna look at retention and that’s about it. Yeah.
Russel Treat [01:00:42]:
Right? Because everything else is some other kind of number that allows me to kinda evaluate. But the real thing I care about is, am I building pipeline? Am I converting pipeline? And am I retaining am I retaining customers? Those are the 3 things I really care about.
Terri Hoffman [01:01:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. But I think you said a few important things that I wanna highlight there because just the I don’t I’m not going to measure anything or run any type of reporting, I think, is a mistake. And I think it’s a mistake a lot of b two b brands make. And you can set up some basic reporting so you’d at least, like take the first step and you start to see like, okay, this is what’s happening. This is the impact of what we’re doing now. And then I think without that, you can’t even be to the point of the journey that you’re describing, which is, okay, now how can I improve the way that I’m looking at this to see if it’s helping me reach my goals? Right?
Russel Treat [01:01:42]:
Yeah. So current state for us is I look at podcast downloads. I look at a certain set of reports around sales that tells me what’s coming into the pipeline, what’s coming out of the pipeline. And then I look at a waterfall report. So what the waterfall report is is every month, I revise my sales forecast through the end of the year based on what’s currently in our customer relationship management software. And I have certain algorithms I apply to that to kinda get a notice. And then I know what the quota is, and I’m looking at how are we doing versus quota. And that facilitates a conversation about, do we need to close things? Do we need to build pipeline and such?
Terri Hoffman [01:02:24]:
How to prioritize your time. Right? Yeah.
Russel Treat [01:02:26]:
Well, yeah, how to prioritize the effort. You know, the Yeah. And that’s that you know, that’s really challenging with the team because, you know, people by their nature, they wanna do it all, and they wanna do it all right now. But that’s not realistic. Right? Well, it’s it’s it’s focused intensity that moves the needle.
Terri Hoffman [01:02:41]:
Well, I know that you are part of why you’re successful is because you’re driven to make it perfect. Right? But it that doesn’t happen overnight. And that’s that’s a big message that I wanna highlight is you have to start. And then once you start, you start to realize, like, I wanna improve this area. I want to improve this area. We need to do this differently and better. But with if you just, you know, kind of for lack of a like, this is maybe a little bit harsh, but you can bury your head in the sand about it. Or you can start looking at it and then start realizing, like, these are the steps I need to take to begin to improve what I’d like to have happen as the outcome.
Russel Treat [01:03:20]:
Yeah. And that I think that’s a great observation, Terry. And for me, you’re right. I am a perfectionist, but I’m also comfortable with a fairly high level of dissonance. And what I have learned is that there’s always gonna be dissonance between what you want to see happening and what’s actually happening. You know, that’s just the nature of things. And that, you know, what matters is what is the thing that if we made it better is gonna make everything else better? So let’s focus on getting that better. And it you know, you can’t do very much in a year.
Russel Treat [01:03:54]:
But with a plan and consistent effort, you can do a huge amount in 3 years.
Terri Hoffman [01:03:59]:
Yeah. So one other component of resourcing that I think a lot of listeners would relate to. So when we started working together, we were your marketing department. You know, that would probably be, I would say, the most accurate way I would describe the the core of the relationship. And a very transparent conversation that you and I had after some time passed and some of the framework was put into place was like, hey. I think you could spend this money differently and get more for the for the
Russel Treat [01:04:28]:
basically fired me.
Terri Hoffman [01:04:31]:
Well, but we still work together. Customer.
Russel Treat [01:04:33]:
Yeah. No. I’m kidding.
Terri Hoffman [01:04:34]:
We just work together differently.
Russel Treat [01:04:35]:
We did. We had a very, very direct conversation, and you actually helped us bring on staff.
Terri Hoffman [01:04:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Russel Treat [01:04:43]:
And, you know, what I it’s it’s like everything else. Right? As you do that, every time you make a hire, every time you try to build a capability or capacity, you learn something. Right? And, you know, there there’s things that we were doing that we’re not doing anymore, and there’s things we’re doing now that we weren’t doing before. And, you know, it’s it’s a constant you know, well, what are our priorities, and what are the resources, and what are our competencies, and, you know, where do we invest? Right. So
Terri Hoffman [01:05:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that that’s, again, another very relatable item for listeners to observe is that if you start a relationship with a consultant or an agency, that doesn’t have to be the beginning, middle, and end. Right?
Russel Treat [01:05:25]:
No. In fact, it shouldn’t be.
Terri Hoffman [01:05:27]:
Yeah.
Russel Treat [01:05:27]:
It shouldn’t be. When you when you bring in your trusted partners, they should be helping you build capacity, competency. Yep. And Yeah. You know, that that’s just part of it.
Terri Hoffman [01:05:37]:
So I’ve got some rapid fire, more way more fun questions that have nothing to do with marketing to ask you to wrap it up. But do you have so let let me dive into those. These will be fun. Okay. First question. What is your favorite trip that you’ve ever taken?
Russel Treat [01:05:55]:
Oh, wow. I’ve done a lot of travel and I’ve been a lot of places. But I think probably one of my favorites was the 10 year anniversary trip I took with my wife when I took her to Italy.
Terri Hoffman [01:06:06]:
Okay. Where did you go?
Russel Treat [01:06:07]:
We started in Milan. We went from Milan to Venice, and we stayed right on the Grand Canal in a room that was, like, right out of a movie set. We went from there to a villa in Tuscany, kind of a bed and breakfast. And we went from there to Florence, and that’s where we finished up. And she’s still on me for because I didn’t take her to Rome. So we gotta go back.
Terri Hoffman [01:06:31]:
Sounds like 20th is yeah. Or whatever next milestone is coming up and have to date. Okay.
Russel Treat [01:06:36]:
We missed the 20th. On 20th, she got the On 20th, she got the big rock that she didn’t get when we got engaged.
Terri Hoffman [01:06:42]:
Okay. Got it. So next question. This one will be fun because you love music. If there was, like, a musical artist or group dead or alive that you wish you had seen in concert that you could see, who would that be?
Russel Treat [01:06:56]:
Oh, that’s a long list, man. If you framed it a little differently and you ask if there was a musician you could have played with.
Terri Hoffman [01:07:04]:
Okay.
Russel Treat [01:07:04]:
Who would it be? That would have been Johnny Bush.
Terri Hoffman [01:07:07]:
Educate me about Johnny Bush. I don’t
Russel Treat [01:07:09]:
I’d have been the pedal steel guitar player in Johnny Bush’s band. Johnny Bush was real Johnny Bush, kinda western swing. He’s popular in the fifties sixties. He used to play a lot around College Station when I was in school there, and I would go to the dance halls and dance holes in my boots, man, just dancing to his music. And in fact, the bump music for Pipeliners podcast is Pipeliners Blues off of Johnny Bush’s Green Snakes on the Ceilings.
Terri Hoffman [01:07:40]:
Okay. Now I now I know who that is. Now that you say that. I didn’t know that was the artist.
Russel Treat [01:07:45]:
Drinking and cheating songs, man. That’s my kind of country music. Still guitar drinking and cheating and, you know, crying in your beer. That’s my
Terri Hoffman [01:07:53]:
kind of country music. Yep. Next question is, like, what is a book that you’ve read that you constantly find yourself recommending to someone?
Russel Treat [01:08:01]:
Think and Grow Rich. K. Napoleon Hill Think and Grow Rich. Yeah. That’s interesting because I there there’s a lot of books I’ve read and recommend. I’ve I’ve I’m a pretty voracious reader. But Think and Grow Rich is the one that I probably recommended to the most people, and I quit giving away my copy to people and, like, oh, can I borrow it? Because it never comes back. So I I I nowadays, I order them a copy on Amazon.
Russel Treat [01:08:26]:
I have it sent to them, and I keep my copy with all its markups and chicken scratching in the margin. That’s that’s kind of another interesting conversation. I was reading a book, and I had a pen out. And I’m marking in the book, and my my wife goes, you can’t write in your book. I’m like, why not? It’s my book.
Terri Hoffman [01:08:44]:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. You couldn’t be an audiobook person then. You you have or a Kindle.
Russel Treat [01:08:49]:
You have to have a book. I have to have a book, actual paper
Terri Hoffman [01:08:52]:
book. Yeah. So last question is what is your favorite job that you’ve ever had?
Russel Treat [01:08:58]:
The one I got right now. Seriously. I I mean that seriously. I I have spent a lifetime creating this job and I really like what I do. I like the people I work with. I have a great team. They’re loyal. They’re intelligent.
Russel Treat [01:09:12]:
They’re hardworking. They’re coachable. I’m I just I’m the job I got right now is the best job I ever had.
Terri Hoffman [01:09:18]:
Yep. And I’m keeping it
Russel Treat [01:09:20]:
as long as I can.
Terri Hoffman [01:09:21]:
I’m very glad to hear that. And I have to second that. You have an awesome team. They’re
Russel Treat [01:09:25]:
Oh, thank
Terri Hoffman [01:09:26]:
you. Wonderful to work with and just all the things that you mentioned. So we we love that relationship. But well, Russell, I think our time has come to a close. I really appreciate you being on today. Thank you for taking so much time to spend with us. And, I mean, the same purpose you have with your audience of pipeliners, I have that same purpose with b to b marketers. And I really appreciate you being open and transparent and kinda sharing some of part of your journey with my listeners.
Terri Hoffman [01:09:54]:
So thank you for being here today.
Russel Treat [01:09:56]:
Hey. Thanks for having me. This was fun. And next time, don’t ask so many hard questions.
Terri Hoffman [01:10:00]:
Well, can’t promise you that, but we’ll we’ll see how it goes. Thanks, Russell. Thanks for listening. Please be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast channel and leave us a review. We’d love to hear from you. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or visit our website at marketing refresh.com.